How sharp off the Norton 8K?

I'm wondering how sharp everyone is able to get their blades right off the Norton 8000.

I've been at this honing thing about three and a half months, and I'm still not quite at the point where I can pass the HHT off the hone. The hair snaps in half but doesn't cut all the way through, or it literally splits down the middle and peels back...

I have some diamond pastes in the mail, but that's almost cheating, isn't it? :w

It seems like the 8K Norton should be able to give me an edge that would easily pass the HHT, but I'm starting to wonder if my expectations might be too high.

Do true honemeisters like Lynn still need to go to a higher grit stone or a pasted strop?

Josh

AFAIK Lynn uses a coticule or Escher after the 8K before stropping his freshly honed razor.

FWIW, most barber's hones are only about 8k.

You should be able to pass the HHT off the 4k, and get a fine shaving edge off the 8k - there are several guys here that stop at the 8k norton. The higher grits add a little more sharpness and smoothness, but at the expense of some edge strength. I rarely go above 16k, and lately I've been stopping at around 12k (boron carbide).

The Norton combo is fine enough for me...

Nenad

You can pass the HHT test from the Norton (and from both sides, as mparker says). Really light touch is the key for me.

James.

I think I might need to work on my technique with the 4K side right now. I have gotten a razor to pass the HHT of the 4K side once, but only on part of the edge.

The biggest challenge for me, I think, is keeping the blade flat when I'm using really light pressure. Even an eighth of an inch of movement in your hand up or down and you can trash the edge.

I do support the scales with my pinkie, but even that only goes so far.

More practicing for me, I guess...

Josh

OK, I spent a little quality time with my Norton and a 5/8 Keen Kutter, and I think I'm making some progress.

I was able to get the blade to pass the HHT quite nicely off the 4K side of the Norton. I did about 10 strokes, starting with some light pressure and then easing off. When I tested it with a medium thickness hair, the free end went flying.

But I can't seem to maintain that edge once I go to the 8K. Ten light, light strokes on the 8K and it's back to snagging hairs and cutting partway through.

I even tried some backhoning on the 4K and 8K, and it didn't seem to help.

It seems counterintuitive. I doubt I'm making such a weak edge on the 4K that it can't take the 8K, because I've tried so many different approaches that I don't think the razors are overhoned. I don't see how I could use any less pressure. Maybe I'm junking up the edge by not keeping the razor flat enough.

But I did make some progress, I think. Thanks for the help everyone; I'll keep at it.

Josh

Try going back to the 4K for a stroke or two and then 30 on 8K and forget about pressure for the first 25 laps, keep the razor flat and use up to twice the weight of the blade if needed to keep it flat, then 5 very light laps to finish and see if you can maintain cutting ability. Its essential, I mean essential, that you keep your pinky rolled under the scale and that the scales be positioned at the exact angle that the blade fall into the hone and falls slightly forward (edge first) into the stone for the last 5 laps. That puts the scales bent towards you and at less then a 180 degree angle to the blade so its not a straight line, its bent in about 20 degrees.

If you lay the blade flat on the hone and start moving the scales by pivoting them you'll see that some positions have tremendous effect on the weight distribution of the blade on the hone, find the spot that has the best effect. Thats slight less than straight (in relation to the blade).

And ofcourse re-lap the 8k slightly beforehand, even 40 strokes gets it slightly concave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshearl

The biggest challenge for me, I think, is keeping the blade flat when I'm using really light pressure. Even an eighth of an inch of movement in your hand up or down and you can trash the edge.


Josh

---

I support the spine with three fingers of the hand that does not support the scales. Works well for me to try and keep spine and edge in full contact with the hone. The fingers on the spine apply only little pressure.

Do you use two hands when you hone? I know this is probably a personal preference thing, but I find using both hands gives me (at least the feeling of) more control. My dominant (right) hand drives the motion from the scales end, while the other hand guides the tip and makes sure it stays on the hone over the full range of motion.

James.

This business of keeping the razor flat on the hone is one reason I like Belgian stones. I find that the slurry helps enormously in this because it gives a lot of feedback, and there's a kind of suction effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo

My dominant (right) hand drives the motion from the scales end, while the other hand guides the tip and makes sure it stays on the hone over the full range of motion.

James.

---

I tried that approach but for me it did not work as well as resting 3 fingers on the spine of the blade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dylandog

This business of keeping the razor flat on the hone is one reason I like Belgian stones. I find that the slurry helps enormously in this because it gives a lot of feedback, and there's a kind of suction effect.

---

Now you mention it I come to realise that this is an important function of the slurry.

Alan,

I hadn't thought about the position of the scales before, but I see what you mean about affecting the balance.

Which way should I try to pivot the scales: toward the edge (like I am slightly closing the razor) or away from the edge (like I'm going to shave with it)?

I'll try your suggestion about using some pressure then backing off.

Josh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Do you use two hands when you hone? I know this is probably a personal preference thing, but I find using both hands gives me (at least the feeling of) more control. My dominant (right) hand drives the motion from the scales end, while the other hand guides the tip and makes sure it stays on the hone over the full range of motion.

James.

---

James,

When I was starting out I tried this approach, but I can't make it work with my X-patterns. Since all of my razors are vintage, I'm finding an X-pattern gives me a more even edge. Some of them have a slight smile, and straight across honing hasn't worked well for me.

Josh

Josh,

Slightly closed, you'll notice it fits into your hand better that way too. By the way, stone orientation is also critical. May I suggest placing the stone so it orients North/South instead of East/West? So your going away and then coming into you vs side to side. You may find that somewhere in between (so that one end points to 2 o'clock and one end points to 8 o'clock may be better for you. The key is making sure your using no pressure and keeping the razor flat for several strokes in both directions. Once the razor lifts you may undo every stroke before it.

Be patient, you'll get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshearl

Alan,

I hadn't thought about the position of the scales before, but I see what you mean about affecting the balance.

Which way should I try to pivot the scales: toward the edge (like I am slightly closing the razor) or away from the edge (like I'm going to shave with it)?

I'll try your suggestion about using some pressure then backing off.

Josh

---

Alan,

I tried your suggestion about partially closing the razor, and son of a gun, it works. It was a lot easier to keep the razor flat on the stone.

I've been experimenting with different orientations, and I agree that N-S is easier to control.

Thanks,
Josh

As the scales do add some momentum to a razor on the hone, why don't we have scales that can be taken off before honing and put back on again afterwards?

And maybe that can be tightened without a hammer?

There's gotta be something out there that works like the feather pivot that actually looks nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Josh,

Slightly closed, you'll notice it fits into your hand better that way too. By the way, stone orientation is also critical. May I suggest placing the stone so it orients North/South instead of East/West? So your going away and then coming into you vs side to side. You may find that somewhere in between (so that one end points to 2 o'clock and one end points to 8 o'clock may be better for you. The key is making sure your using no pressure and keeping the razor flat for several strokes in both directions. Once the razor lifts you may undo every stroke before it.

Be patient, you'll get it.

---

I know this may sound strange, but I've found standing up while honing works better for me as well. I use two hands, stone facing north/south and I use an X pattern. I can get right over the top of the stone with my head and the balance follows.

Beginning to sound like a golf lesson! :D

James.

WOOHOOO! In about an hour I was able to get four razors to pass the HHT off the 8K side of the Norton. My jury-rigged diamond balsa strop and the 1 and .5 micron pastes have my razors sharper than I've ever gotten them before.

I almost didn't start this thread this morning, because I thought, "What will I learn that I haven't already read?" Well, it made all the difference.

Here's what I learned:
-The razor should pass the HHT (at least with my hair) off the 4K side of the Norton before moving to the 8K. I did about 10 light strokes to get it to that point.

-I need to do more strokes with more pressure on the 8K. I did 25 strokes with a good bit of pressure--haven't been able to figure out how much "two time the weight of the blade" is--using enough pressure that I was sure the blade would stay flat.

-After that, five to 10 very very light strokes puts the fine edge on the blade. After that it was passing the HHT pretty easily, although on some of the razors the hair was still "popping" instead of just slicing cleanly.

-Pivoting the handle about 1/8 of the way closed makes it much easier to keep the blade flat.

-Standing at different angles to the stone makes a difference. I have so much practice now with the side-to-side motion that it's actually easier for me to control than a N-S motion, but for the strokes with pressure the N-S is better.

Thanks Alan and everyone else. I'm not at honemeister level yet, but I think I'm making progress toward that goal. You guys are incredibly helpful.

Now I can put my Norton away for a while and work on my shaving technique. Yippee!

Josh

Congrats! It was all you man. The skills were locked in there all along. :tu

I shaved this morning with one of my newly honed razors, a 5/8 roundpoint Solingen Razor Co. model that is fast becoming my go-to blade.

It was a thing of beauty. I felt like I was just wiping lather off my face--no tugging at all on my cheeks, and only a little bit on my chin.

I even got most of the work on my chin done with the straight, switching to my DE only for a quick clean up.

I'm psyched. Thanks again everyone.

Josh

A question about the HHT. I can't get ANY of my hairs to cut just by hanging.

I hold the razor flat (horizontal facing away from me) and move the hair over the razor. The hair just bends. I don't think that my hair is very coarse... is that the problem?

Am I just chasing a dream? Is there a better way to test for sharpness?

The best test is the shave test. My blades can't cut any hanging hairs growing long enough in this house but they still give exceptionally smooth and irritation free shaves.

I was working on my new Norton tonight and I'm having a really tough time getting any hairs to cut too. Could it be that the coarseness or lack thereof of the hair affects the HHT?

I bought one of those $10 microscopes at Radio shack and I look at the edge an it looks very nice and smooth after some laps on the 8K, but I don't know. The hairs just get pushed away from the blade pretty much all of the time.

I do feel that I've gotten very good at keeping the blade flat while applying hardly any pressure at all. That took some time to get comfortable with.

Maybe since my hair is somewhat fine (on my head) I should just try shaving with them and see what's what.

Using fine hair for the HHT makes it very difficult to pass. My hair is just right but I never let it grow long enough lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spacetoast

I was working on my new Norton tonight and I'm having a really tough time getting any hairs to cut too. Could it be that the coarseness or lack thereof of the hair affects the HHT?

---

Yes. The best hair to use for the HHT is probably facial hair, but most of us don't have any long enough anymore.

The hair on my head doesn't work with the HHT, so I use the hair on my arm instead. It took a little experimentation to figure out which part of my arm had the best hair for the HHT. I used a honemeister blade and went around my arm popping hair until I found where the hair got fine enough that even it couldn't pop them. Then I used that as my target while honing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mparker762

Yes. The best hair to use for the HHT is probably facial hair, but most of us don't have any long enough anymore.

The hair on my head doesn't work with the HHT, so I use the hair on my arm instead. It took a little experimentation to figure out which part of my arm had the best hair for the HHT. I used a honemeister blade and went around my arm popping hair until I found where the hair got fine enough that even it couldn't pop them. Then I used that as my target while honing.

---

That is an excellent idea. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm just going to send one of my razors to someone so I will have a standard to compare to.

That certainly makes me feel better knowing about the hair thickness. Sitting at the table with your hones and razors and feeling like you are getting nowhere is a bummer.

Spacetoast,

It's funny how we're all so different: My arm hair is blond and so fine that I've never been able to do the "arm hair test."

Your best bet is probably to get a honemeister razor and learn the thumb test. I'm working on getting a feel for that now.

If you can snag some hairs from someone else, or possibly a dog, that might work for you too. I have a handful of hair in a little ziplock bag that I kept from last time I cut my hair.

Josh

Getting an expertly honed razor is a great idea. Each individual has different hair, the key is knowing what your hair does vs a sharp blade.

I don't think I'm the only one that thinks like this but sharpness tests aren't something you pass or don't pass. Its a reactionary observation. You observe what the blade does in response to a test. Cutting arm hair is a good minimum baseline for me. Cutting hair confidently is a completely greater success. Its watching how the blade functions, sounds, pops (or lack thereof) etc. that should be evaluated.

Its possible to "pass" an HHT and have a horrible edge or vice a versa.

For your razor I'd simply remove more metal on 4K, then work your way back up.

I doubt your razors are sharp at all, simply because getting HHT sharp is pretty challenging for a while but I also suggest you learn the thumb testing procedures too.

I'd try just shaving and see where your face thinks your at.

Robert Williams also created a good test that was "control neutral", it had something to do with creating a curve of paper towel and trying to cut the paper towel. I'd suggest a search on that or perhaps a PM to him too. I don't have any personal experience with the technique though.

It's not the matter weather the razor will or will not cut the hair, but the cutting quality is what counts. You can slice a hanging hair and still get lousy shave.

One needs experience in the hanging hair test, to evaluate the quality of the cut. The razor cuts the hair effortlessly, sometimes it cuts it with a "pop", sometimes cuts it and fold it, and sometimes splice it.

Also, a valuable thing to observe during the hanging hair test is the amount of pulling sensation in the fingers holding the hair.

I, however, evaluate the razor (after stropping) by lightly floating or hovering it at the ends of my arm hair (brown). It always cuts it, but I get a really good shave when I hardly feel the hairs being cut, opposite to slight tingling or pulling sensation when the razor is less than sharp...



Nenad

So I guess the real trick is to get a sharp razor that shaves well and figure out a way to identify that sharpness that works for you. Whether it be doing a HHT with your own hair, or arm hairs, or getting to understand what the sharpness feels like on the pads of your fingers, etc.

Looks like the best thing to do is start with a sharp razor and correlate it to some kind identifying test that works for one personally.

One of the tough skills to learn for honing is *when to stop*. Figuring out a good test for "shave-readiness" is a key step towards this. Eventually you'll also learn to listen to the hone, so the hair tests decline in importance somewhat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshEarl

OK, I spent a little quality time with my Norton and a 5/8 Keen Kutter, and I think I'm making some progress.

I was able to get the blade to pass the HHT quite nicely off the 4K side of the Norton. I did about 10 strokes, starting with some light pressure and then easing off. When I tested it with a medium thickness hair, the free end went flying.

But I can't seem to maintain that edge once I go to the 8K. Ten light, light strokes on the 8K and it's back to snagging hairs and cutting partway through.

I even tried some backhoning on the 4K and 8K, and it didn't seem to help.

It seems counterintuitive. I doubt I'm making such a weak edge on the 4K that it can't take the 8K, because I've tried so many different approaches that I don't think the razors are overhoned. I don't see how I could use any less pressure. Maybe I'm junking up the edge by not keeping the razor flat enough.

But I did make some progress, I think. Thanks for the help everyone; I'll keep at it.

Josh

---

I think that if you spent more time testing by shaving, you would learn a lot more about honing. I have gotten magnificent shaves just from using the Norton 4K/8K alone.

Have fun.

Lynn